Mixing in mono to avoid phase cancellation?

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Why though?

I still cant understand.

;-;

What does phase cancellation sound like, and what does it look like?

I found a great article here. https://www.musicianonamission.com/phas ... Sound_Like
But... I'm too beginner to understand
When one wave goes up, the other wave should also be going up. If you see them going up and down at opposite intervals, you’ve got phase cancellation.
What is its relation in mono mixing? Was it... when the 2 stereo channels were summed to mono and the sounds/certain frequencies disappear?

Also, about the spectrum analyzer.
Here's the embedded image:
Image

I still.. cant fully process how phase cancellation and its relation in mono mixing.
And what's its workaround in mixing part.

Here's one of my songs...

Stereo: https://www.bandlab.com/vortexsupernova ... 50f28a2802
Mono: https://www.bandlab.com/vortexsupernova ... 50f28a2802

Does it have phase cancellation? I think it does so... I'm not really sure
https://prnt.sc/w9trg1
Image
Because when the waveforms were added, the waveform became quieter, hence, the frequencies were cancelled out?
Perfect phase cancellation has no sound. Partial phase cancellation varies depending on the type, but it will generally sound weaker and less full. As the articled you linked said, sometimes even tinny sounding. In fact, after reading through the article myself I'm not sure I can do a better job explaining phase cancellation that it does.

You've guessed correctly: Mixing in mono forces the summing of the two stereo channels, causing phasing issues to be easier to monitor. Let's change gears.

When you produce using headphones, you have perfect phase separation. This means that the left ear only gets signal from the left channel, and the right ear only gets signal from the right channel. There isn't any crosstalk between the channels before they reach your ears. This can be a critical flaw for mixing, because this also means that you won't hear any stereo phase issues when using headphones, more on this later. On speakers, the left and right soundwaves can partially combine before reaching your ears, allowing for you to hear phasing issues. Mixing in mono is the next step up from that, because while stereo speakers allow for some cross talk, they still aren't mono. Mixing in mono forces all phasing issues to show up, because there is no longer any phase separation hiding those issues.

A few other side notes:
  • It's almost impossible to combine any waveform without some phase cancellation happening, even at a miniscule level. This could be anything from the slightest time offset, to full on having a recording mic wired backwards.
  • Our brains process stereo by differences in the waveforms reaching each ear. A mono sound will be identical in each ear, while a completely stereo sound will have zero overlap between each ear (and also isn't physically possible without headphones). It's also worth noting that we also process the locations of sounds by time delay. When someone on your left claps, your right ear gets a time delayed, quieter signal. This happens because your right ear is farther away, and because your head blocks/dampens some of the noise. This amplitude difference and time delay allows the brain to process the location of the noise as from the left.
  • As expected, adding a time delay between stereo channels can instantly add phasing issues if the waveforms are not aligned properly. Some stereo wideners function by delaying one side, and this can have disastrous effects on a mix.



vortexsupernova wrote: Does it have phase cancellation? I think it does so... I'm not really sure
Yep! As mentioned, combining any waveforms with differences will cause some phase cancellation. It simply isn't avoidable! You can tell because the plucks and pads sound weirdly caged and narrow. But here is my recommendation to you: Don't worry about it. While caring about mono translation is fine, fretting about it for the whole mix often results in overly-mono, boring mixes. There are 3 main things that you should worry about being mono compatible: Your kick, your bassline, and your lead synth/lead vocal (if applicable). Pretty much all frequencies below 60-100 Hz should be mono. Your kick is an anchor to the track, so it should be mono (compatible). Lead vocals, synths, melodic lines, etc, should also be mono, or at least mono compatible as they are the main focus of the track and phase cancellation can't be tolerated unless it's for a critical creative effect.

I hope this was helpful!
It does hep me, and I was confused about this too. (why you should mix in mono, which we cant in LMMS)

Been using calf stereo tools, and it always annopys me, how this tool makes the mix go off center.

There is another dial that can compensate for this a bit, but I do not like how its not only widening the stereo, but has a bigger impact.

All stereo tools I used have this issue though, and you confirmed my speculation on this.

The plugin can't go back in time which it should do, to keep the mix centred?
Gps wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:11 pm
It does hep me, and I was confused about this too. (why you should mix in mono, which we cant in LMMS)

Been using calf stereo tools, and it always annopys me, how this tool makes the mix go off center.

There is another dial that can compensate for this a bit, but I do not like how its not only widening the stereo, but has a bigger impact.

All stereo tools I used have this issue though, and you confirmed my speculation on this.

The plugin can't go back in time which it should do, to keep the mix centred?
Mixing in mono is possible in LMMS using the native Stereo Matrix plugin. It looks like this:
Image

Each knob can also invert the signal being sent, for especially aggressive phase checking. I personally use a pair of these on my pre-master channel to do M/S processing.

You seem to have also discovered what I mentioned earlier - most stereo widening tools use bad methods to make the mix sound wider. A lot of plugins in LMMS are like this, they don't do things quite right.

For your last question about the plugin altering the delays, it is possible to make one side play earlier, but this will not make the sound centered. Any stereo based on time delay will not sound perfectly centered, as time delay location is one of the biggest advantages of having two ears. This is also similar to how we use both eyes for depth perception. If the method of widening is time delay, removing the delay would remove the widening. One of the better methods is to pan your instruments following sound stage guides like this one:
Image

There are obviously a lot of ways to do things, and at the end of the day it comes down to what you are willing to compromise on!
Thank you for a comprehensive answer. I am not expecting this to be answered in Discord because, the fact that LMMS does not have a pure mono out and most users don't know it and the shitpost nature of the server. Also, for the additional explanation with the human ear. Bookmarking this.
Stakeout Punch wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:03 pm
You seem to have also discovered what I mentioned earlier - most stereo widening tools use bad methods to make the mix sound wider. A lot of plugins in LMMS are like this, they don't do things quite right.
I heard that delay-based stereo enhancers are not good, notably, Haas type, which is only good for the "extra stereo things" e.g. effects. Tried it in a pure sine I generated in Audacity, delayed the signal, made it mono, and most of the sound disappeared.

I conclude that it would be a good idea to play your song in different hardware, e.g. phone speakers/stereo & mono speakers/monitors/etc., to see if the mix would work or wouldn't.
Stakeout Punch wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:52 am
It simply isn't avoidable! You can tell because the plucks and pads sound weirdly caged and narrow. But here is my recommendation to you: Don't worry about it. While caring about mono translation is fine, fretting about it for the whole mix often results in overly-mono, boring mixes.
Hmm thanks for telling me. If you wouldn't say this, I'm going berserk to mono everything! Therefore, these imperfections are pretty normal, like having some mole or pimples on our faces. So far, the kick sounds good and stands out, but maybe fix the leads later. I've heard before vocals should be always mono, except for the extra backing vocals and the ooooohh that randomly pans left and right. I also learned any low freq should be mono, too.
Stakeout Punch wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 5:52 am
I hope this was helpful!
I does! :D
Gps wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:11 pm
Been using calf stereo tools, and it always annopys me, how this tool makes the mix go off center.
I use the Widener knob to compensate this.

By the way, songs using the Widener knob in Calf Stereo Tools from calf.dll (1.2.2) is completely different/not compatible from the one in 1.3 alpha(veal)

I only know one plug that does a good job: Ozone Imager works great in making stereo enhancing mono-compatible

Does the Narrower LADSPA does a good job in making things mono, or it just center pans?
Stakeout Punch wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:03 pm
Gps wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:11 pm
It does hep me, and I was confused about this too. (why you should mix in mono, which we cant in LMMS)

Been using calf stereo tools, and it always annopys me, how this tool makes the mix go off center.

There is another dial that can compensate for this a bit, but I do not like how its not only widening the stereo, but has a bigger impact.

All stereo tools I used have this issue though, and you confirmed my speculation on this.

The plugin can't go back in time which it should do, to keep the mix centred?
Mixing in mono is possible in LMMS using the native Stereo Matrix plugin. It looks like this:
Image

Each knob can also invert the signal being sent, for especially aggressive phase checking. I personally use a pair of these on my pre-master channel to do M/S processing.

You seem to have also discovered what I mentioned earlier - most stereo widening tools use bad methods to make the mix sound wider. A lot of plugins in LMMS are like this, they don't do things quite right.

For your last question about the plugin altering the delays, it is possible to make one side play earlier, but this will not make the sound centered. Any stereo based on time delay will not sound perfectly centered, as time delay location is one of the biggest advantages of having two ears. This is also similar to how we use both eyes for depth perception. If the method of widening is time delay, removing the delay would remove the widening. One of the better methods is to pan your instruments following sound stage guides like this one:
Image

There are obviously a lot of ways to do things, and at the end of the day it comes down to what you are willing to compromise on!
Thank you :)
Good info Stakeout Punch.