Hard getting that modern ambient sound?

Anything that doesn't fit into other topics goes here!
I don't know if its just me or the quality of packaged LMMS samples or the confusing interface but I am having a heck of a hard time recreating that very Ambient ethereal sound and phat beats that is common in electronic music (trance especially). I am a classically trained musician, but very inexperienced with sound engineering.

Are the samples or effects not as high of quality in Lmms as they are in professional setups or FL studio?

Also, I have other problems

Phaser/flanger
So on my guitar with my effect pedal if I want a big phase sound from high frequency to low like some of those big buildups like in electronic music, its so easy, but when I try to create something similar in LMMS, like adding phaser effects (phaser flang etc.) it does hardly nothing even when im moving the knobs all around.

Echo
So once again in audacity or with guitar pedals I can usually set the number of echos but all the add effects in lmms do not have this settings, i think.,

Any help or tips would be appreciated. Do I have to get my degree in Lmms because it has the name Linux in it?
bluesh1ft wrote:Are the samples or effects not as high of quality in Lmms as they are in professional setups or FL studio?
well, no -you get more if you pay more. fl has better sound and deeper editing. take samples -in lmms you cant chop to size. you can in fl. If you bought fl, then you would ask the same question in fl forum , but now it would be Reason that would be the superior -and upwards :p
But,... /more to come/
bluesh1ft wrote: Phaser/flanger
but when I try to create something similar in LMMS, like adding phaser effects (phaser flang etc.) it does hardly nothing even when im moving the knobs all around.
Echo
but all the add effects in lmms do not have this settings, i think.,
see this is where it now has gone interesting
Since 0.4.15 you have automation in vsts! lmms has now all the depth you can drag out of any specific vsts!
Start with synth1. -and stay there :p, well- no, but its up to you to find great vsts (btw -not all works in lmms)
bluesh1ft wrote:
Do I have to get my degree in Lmms because it has the name Linux in it?
no, but it helps
The samples... I think the only useful samples from the ones that are included in LMMS are the drum samples, and even those, only the snares/hats/other percussion - you'll want to do the bassdrum otherwise, especially if you aim to do trance music.

Luckily, LMMS comes with a very adequate bassdrum synth, that's pretty much all you need when it comes to bassdrums. Or, if you want that classic, soft bassdrum sound, then look for a VST called TS-808, it's very close to the real thing.
bluesh1ft wrote: Ambient ethereal sound and phat beats
For "ethereal" pads, all you really need is triple osc. Look at the instrument presets for the triple osc, pick something that's close to what you want, and play around with the knobs until you're satisfied. Then if you want a classic trance gate on that, it's quite easy to do with notes only - just leave out the volume envelope and put in notes like this: #-#-###-, that is, 2 32th notes, with 32th breaks in between, then a 1.5x16th note, and another 32th break, then just repeat that pattern for as long as needed.

(There's also a VST effect called "neon gate" that lets you do the same thing quite easily, I use it some times)
bluesh1ft wrote:Phaser/flanger
So on my guitar with my effect pedal if I want a big phase sound from high frequency to low like some of those big buildups like in electronic music
You don't really want to do buildups with phaser/flanger. Phaser/flanger are LFO-based effects, where the effect variates (oscillates) constantly according to the knob setting, and getting the timing of the LFO right for a buildup would be a really big pain in the donkey.

What you want is resonant filters. Luckily, LMMS comes with those right out of the box for most instruments. I think the standard filter (the one included in the instruments) works on everything except the LB-302, and VST. And ZynAddSub, but ZynAddSub is a bit more advanced topic...

So, take the triple osc again. If you want phat leads, it's easiest to do by taking saw wave (moog saw if you want a bit softer sound) oscs and detuning them, set left finetune to -5 and right finetune to +5 or something like that, then add a bit of stereo phase in it (turn the SPO knob to 180), this makes it so that left and right channels are in opposite phases, it gives the sound a bit of "room", it's like a reverb without reverb, kind of. Then you can add second and third oscs to it and do whatever with them, experiment with it.

Then go to the second tab of the instrument window, and activate the filter. Bandpass filter works well, although a lowpass or 2xlowpass are quite nice as well. Then just automate the cutoff to go in long sweeps, from low frequency to high (and back to low, as needed).
bluesh1ft wrote: it does hardly nothing even when im moving the knobs all around.
Which knobs are you moving? When you add the effect to the fx rack, there's three knobs, these don't control the actual effect but only how the effect is mixed to the original sound. You need to press the "controls" button to show the real controls of the effect. Of the three knobs in the effect "front panel", you'll need to make sure that the w/d knob is set to full, it's the "wet/dry" knob and it adjusts the mix between modified/unmodified signal (which in audio lingo are called "wet" and "dry" signals, hence the name of the knob).
bluesh1ft wrote:Echo
So once again in audacity or with guitar pedals I can usually set the number of echos but all the add effects in lmms do not have this settings, i think.,
If you want multiple echos in a way that the echo quiets down gradually, use a feedback delay line. If you want to accurately control the number of echos, then you can use the echo delay lines: add as many echo delay lines as you want echos, then adjust each of them to have the delay and volume you want. Note here, that in the effects rack, in the front panel where there are the three knobs, you'll want to set the "decay" knob to at least as high as you set the effect's delay time. This "decay" knob controls how long the effect waits with an empty (silent) signal, before switching off to conserve CPU power, so if the knob is set too low, then with short notes, the effect switches off before it has a chance to affect the sound.
Thanks for the responses guys. That was really helpful. So if you grab higher quality samples from somewhere then would you say that high quality music for the most part would be indistinguishable with LMMS vs FL Studio? It was mentioned that the controls are a little more in depth with fl studio. Could this be made up for with something like Audacity?

So the bass kicker is all you need for a bass you think? (as far as electric music goes)

Also, do you guys know the proper way to get that muffled dull sound that drums or instruments have when they build up to a full beat. Should I throw an eq effect on a lfo and automate it with the drawing tool? Is that effect more complicated than that ? I am gonna play with the resonant filter as was suggested, tonigt hopefully :)
bluesh1ft wrote:Thanks for the responses guys. That was really helpful. So if you grab higher quality samples from somewhere then would you say that high quality music for the most part would be indistinguishable with LMMS vs FL Studio? It was mentioned that the controls are a little more in depth with fl studio. Could this be made up for with something like Audacity?
I'd say forget about samples, you don't really need samples for anything except percussion and sound effects, and for now you should just mostly forget about samples and get yourself familiar with the synths instead. If you start over-relying on samples, your music will sound fake and repetitive.

Learn how to use the triple oscillator, it looks simple but there's a whole world of different sounds behind those knobs. Just play around with it until you get a feeling of what does what, and what settings result in what kind of sounds. Look at the different presets and fiddle with them to see how the sound was created.

Then later you'll be able to graduate to more advanced synths: Synth1 (a VST plugin) is a good one to start from. There's lots of good free VST instruments out there, not all of them work in LMMS but many do.
So the bass kicker is all you need for a bass you think? (as far as electric music goes)
Depends a bit on what kind of sound you're after. Saying "electric music" is kind of like saying "that music genre where people play guitars and drums". Kicker is a simple bassdrum synth, you can get some variation out of it, but basically it's best for that really hard, striking trance/psy/goa kick. You can enrichen the sound by adding some filters and reverbs to it, but don't overdo it...

If you want a softer drum sound, look into TS-808, it's a VSTi that is a very accurate simulation of TR-808, and works in LMMS (but you'll need to export it at 44,1khz, it won't agree to output any higher, as of now) and is very easy to use.

If you want to do those really fast breakbeat loops, then you'll probably want to use sampled real drumkits, your best bet here IMO is looking for some drum soundfonts. Most soundfonts are compressed with SfArk, so you'll need a software to unpack the .sfArk files to .sf2 files.
Also, do you guys know the proper way to get that muffled dull sound that drums or instruments have when they build up to a full beat. Should I throw an eq effect on a lfo and automate it with the drawing tool? Is that effect more complicated than that ? I am gonna play with the resonant filter as was suggested, tonigt hopefully :)
Nah, eq:s are more useful for mixing/mastering, modifying the spectrum of the sound - IMO it gets pointlessly complicated trying to automate them. All you really need for that muffled sound is a low-pass filter, and you can either use the built-in one on the instrument tab, or if you want to apply it to the entire mixer channel (to apply it to multiple instruments/samples at once), look at the included effect plugins, there are ok filters there as well.
Wow!
Good read.
I heard about Neon gate, but I never checked it out.
Been years since I heard about it.
Thanks for all of that informative info diiz.
Yeah. Interesting subject bluesh1ft! I never really thought of this before...
musikbear wrote: well, no -you get more if you pay more. fl has better sound and deeper editing. take samples -in lmms you cant chop to size. you can in fl. If you bought fl, then you would ask the same question in fl forum , but now it would be Reason that would be the superior -and upwards :p
But,... /more to come/
More to come :o

Is that what we call a teaser ?

Out of curiosity how would you rank the most popular DAW's as in professional.

I am thinking about reaper, albeton and cubase.

Just because its the oldest as far as I know, I would guess Cubase on top?
Which is prob also the most expensive one ?
bluesh1ft wrote:I don't know if its just me or the quality of packaged LMMS samples or the confusing interface but I am having a heck of a hard time recreating that very Ambient ethereal sound and phat beats that is common in electronic music (trance especially). I am a classically trained musician, but very inexperienced with sound engineering.

Are the samples or effects not as high of quality in Lmms as they are in professional setups or FL studio?

Also, I have other problems

Phaser/flanger
So on my guitar with my effect pedal if I want a big phase sound from high frequency to low like some of those big buildups like in electronic music, its so easy, but when I try to create something similar in LMMS, like adding phaser effects (phaser flang etc.) it does hardly nothing even when im moving the knobs all around.

Echo
So once again in audacity or with guitar pedals I can usually set the number of echos but all the add effects in lmms do not have this settings, i think.,

Any help or tips would be appreciated. Do I have to get my degree in Lmms because it has the name Linux in it?
What really has done wonders for me, is using easy Q.
Boost the lower and the highend with easyQ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1_nZt1kpEM
Like on a MIDI?